Panel Discussion on Team Ministry 
Mickey Connolly (moderator), C.J. Mahaney, Jared Mellinger, Jon Payne and Jeff Purswell

The following is an edited transcript of the audio

Mark Prater: One of the four marks of a faithful pastor that Jeff pointed us to in his message. It was the second point - he is aware of his need of others, and that includes the men around us on our pastoral teams. And so we wanted to follow that wonderful sermon from Ephesians 3, by having a panel discussion about team ministry, and how to build a healthy plurality. And for the wives that are here, you play an important role in that. So we've designed questions that speak about your role as well. So this is not just going to be for the guys. We've asked Mickey Connolly to lead this panel for us. Of course, Jeff, since he preached the message, he needs to answer the questions obviously. We've also asked CJ, who as our founder has built this denomination on the gospel, and we want to learn from him, continue to learn from him. And then Jon Payne and Jared Mellinger as well. So can you welcome these men as they come to the stage?

CJ Mahaney: Yeah. Thank you. If you have fond memories of past celebration conferences or if you've heard stories about celebration conferences, I would want to encourage you, they are continuing, their location is now Juarez, Mexico and I would encourage pastors and pastoral teams to consider attending. It will deeply and profoundly affect you to observe up close and personal, what's happening not only in Mexico, but throughout Latin America. And so a hearty encouragement to consider making that conference a priority.

Mickey Connolly: Excellent.

CJ Mahaney: Thank you.

Mickey Connolly: Thank you. And thank you to you men for doing this. Jeff mentioned this in his message, but he's talked to me about this many times, that churches don't blow up, teams blow up. And this panel kind of sprung from a talk that CJ and I and Jeff had last spring, and maybe we should do an ordinary pastor podcast series on teams, but we just thought this conference would be a great place to do this. And God has been very kind to us when it comes to team ministry, because we're not just coworkers.

Mickey Connolly: I had an interesting discussion with a president of a well-known reformed seminary who would also know Sovereign Grace. And in a conversation, he said to me, "We don't do teams like you guys do teams." And I just informed him that's the grace of God and God's kindness to us, because he has been very kind to us in this area.

Mickey Connolly: So we thought a panel with these particular men, all of whom have built wonderful teams over the years, we really hoped would serve you. So thank you guys for being a part of this. And let me just dive in and start with this. So what does a healthy team look like? We're talking about healthy teams and pluralities. In your experience, what does that look like? So Jeff, how would you answer that question?

Jeff Purswell: I just talked a lot and I think we should hear from other guys.

Mickey Connolly: Again, welcome to the Ordinary Pastors podcast. Jared, please, somebody help me.

CJ Mahaney: Uncooperative panel.

Mickey Connolly: Don't leave me hanging up here Jared.

Jared Mellinger: I do think a number of the things that that Jeff communicated summarizes well what a healthy team looks like. One thing that I would say is I think it has less to do - because we can talk about this, we do these particular practices, we have these things in place that we do - I think even more important than that is a culture. There's an environment, an aroma, a culture that every team and every church will have, and as we heard, what you have on the team will spread to the church. And so a healthy eldership will be one in which they are modeling the one anothers of scripture in relation to each other and in which they are walking in the kind of joy and humility and gratitude that we just heard preached. I think in particular for me, every year that I'm in pastoral ministry more and more the value of a culture of joy, which we've heard so much about, and yet can be so easy to drift away from. We must do our work as a team with joy, and not with groaning. Otherwise, it will be no advantage to those we serve. People will not benefit from our leadership-

CJ Mahaney: Or our wives and children.

Jared Mellinger: ... if we are not a joyful people.

Jeff Purswell: If I could just kind of tuck this under what he said, I think what produces all of that... I mean this is going to sound, "Well. Yeah, of course you just said that," but I really do think a healthy team is going to start with every single guy appropriating the gospel. I mean every, every single guy being affected by again the framework that the gospel produces. In other words, you are grateful for grace and so you're going to be humble. You are aware that apart from Christ, John 15 "Apart from Christ, you can do nothing." So you're dependent on other people. You're in the field. Like we were saying, so you're going to be joyful, because your sins are forgiven. Christ dwells in you. I mean that's what when we say gospel centered, it's not a flavor of the month, or it's kind of, "Yeah, that's the thing we adopt for us. Other churches can do other things." No it's just what... It's the nature of God's saving activity. And so when we give attention to that, and we allow, every person on a team has a responsibility to be affected by that. And when everyone... When that's happening, then the things that detract from a healthy team, they're just going to be minimized and the seeds are sown for what's going to be a happy team.

Jon Payne: Yeah. I think it seems like you made the point Jeff, but the privilege of pastoring... When the privilege of pastoring is lost even by a single guy on the team there's the seeds of discontent and division and the hierarchy thinking that starts to play in. But whenever a guy just thinks of pastoring as a privilege, even to pastor one Christian is a privilege. It's a joy. And to be pastoring with other pastors is a privilege that... That takes away the seeds of envy and discontent and craving and frustration with people's moods and why I'm not serving where I want to serve. And I'm not preaching enough, or I'm serving in some ministry I don't even like, because even just pastoring one person is a privilege and pastoring with another pastor is an honor. So I'm sitting next to a man called by Jesus to help his people. I don't care what I have to do to help him be a success. And I think the other category there that again CJ's taught us well over the years is leading in celebrating the grace of God in the other pastors' lives so that the team is filled with men who are excited about how God wants to use this man in his ministry.

It's not about my ministry, it's about how I can celebrate how God's using them and more, that's my heart. I want to see you have new roles, and have greater responsibility, and be where God's called you to be. And that's where I'm getting excited, not how I'm elevating up the ladder. I think that protects teams from a division danger.

CJ Mahaney: I think healthy teams are made up of healthy individual pastors who as these men have all said, give attention first and foremost to their own hearts, reviewing, rehearsing, and rejoicing in the gospel each and every day. Stunned. Stunned as they contemplate the peril that they have been rescued from, the peril of God's wrath, rescued from the peril of God's righteous wrath, by the substitution of the Son of God on the cross for our sins. We are to live each day simply astounded by that. I think Piper wrote, "We should be more amazed we are saved than that anyone else is lost." So healthy teams are made up of a healthy pastor who walks around with a deepening amazement, in the grace of God. And then what Jon just mentioned as well, amazed by the grace of God in the gospel, but then also stunned that the chief Shepherd himself, has called you to care for his people. That you have been temporarily entrusted with those for whom Christ has died. And temporarily entrusted, because this is a temporary gig. We are first and foremost needy sheep, which should inform our shepherding. So the shepherding role is temporary, but we've been temporarily entrusted with those for whom Christ has died. So a healthy pastoral team is made up of pastors who sit around in wonder that they have been given this privilege. By the way that will protect us from all manner of temptation. Pastoral teams, all pastoral teams, are subject to that.

Mickey Connolly: Fabulous message. Thanks first Jared for starting off with the heart of the matter, which I think is always the most important thing. How have you guys tried to actually build these things; it doesn't just happen. So what are some of the things that you've done, or experienced, or seen over the years that actually build a team together to have this kind of unity in one anothers and affection for one another? And what are some of the things you do to actually build that team in practical ways?

Jon Payne: I think the lead pastor has to prioritize time of encouragement. I think encouragement is a great value in the abstract, and it's easily forgotten in the planning. So team retreats, team meetings, team get-togethers. It has to be something that's built in to the schedule, whether it's a spontaneous schedule, or a planned retreat, or meeting, or whatever. Lest it becomes something that we're just assuming on everybody's memories to do that. I think that's a key way where affection is just a regular part of the team communication. I love you guys. I'm grateful for you. Here's where I'm seeing God at work in you. Where are you seeing in each other? That has to just be a constant priority that takes the place of other valuable and maybe even urgent discussions. I think that starts building that in the right direction.

CJ Mahaney: Yeah. The lead pastor, the senior pastor bears a unique responsibility for creating the team and building the team. No one should be more grateful for each member of the team, than the senior pastor, the lead pastor of a team. Because no one should be more aware of their unique contribution to the team, and the church. So a senior pastor has to have a conviction about plurality, a conviction about his role in creating a functioning team, so that there is a genuine, heartfelt affection for each other and appreciation of each other. And so creating those contexts where you can communicate that affection to one another and draw attention as these men have already referenced to the multiplicity of evidences of grace that are in front of us each and every day, creating contexts where that can become a deliberate and delightful practice. We'll build a team together and I think that's a unique responsibility for the senior pastor. A senior pastor has to approach the team with this conviction and awareness that they don't exist to serve me, I exist to serve them, and it is my privilege to serve with them this church. And if you have that conviction and approach, you'll find your way to all manner of practice that will not be difficult.

Jared Mellinger: One thing I would add is I think it's important to have context, not just where decisions are being made, but context where brothers are able to enjoy each other's company. There should be meals that are enjoyed together. There should be times where a relationship is able to be cultivated. So however that fits into the schedule. But I think making that a priority in time is very important.

Jeff Purswell: Right. One thing I would add... Well, it's been said and implied when it was said, but there are I think sometimes - and I've heard this kind of talk - Well we don't get along... Some of us don't get along, or it's not imperative that we're friends. I just would say we're called to cultivate. I mean CJ was using this word we are called to cultivate an affection. Doesn't mean this person is necessarily my best friend, or this is my closest, or these my only friends. But when you look at Paul's... One of the most penetrating chapters on pastoral ministries, 1 Thessalonians 2, and Paul talks about his tender affection for this church and he combines... It's amazing, he combines these two metaphors. A nursing mother. I was like... He doesn't just say, "I was like a mother. I was like a mom. I was like hitting you on the head with a broom." He's thinking about his relationship and he chooses the most tender metaphor imaginable. A mother with a child at her. breast. That's how I was like. And then a few verses later, "Then I was like a father exhorting you, encouraging you." But you just see he's just so personally invested. And if that is his heart to the church, how much more on a team should we be investing? It doesn't mean we have unrealistic expectations about our relationship, but it does mean we're intentional about cultivating affection for each other and serving each other and again, realizing the obvious, but we can forget it. That is going to affect the entire church.

Mickey Connolly: What about wives? So wives, we said for years, there's no job description for a pastor's wife. She's a helper to her husband. But they're critical in coming alongside their husbands, and... How have you thought about just involving wives when you've been building teams?

Jared Mellinger: As you said, the role that a pastor's wife plays is profoundly influential for better or for worse in the health of the team and the health of the church. I'm not just saying that. I've seen situations where a pastor's wife destroys a church, and I've seen situations where a pastor's wife sustains and encourages and gives life to a team and to a church. Almost rescues the church. So it matters a lot. And so for me, motivated by that, I want to give special attention to the place that a pastor's wife plays, recognizing that they are not the pastors, they are not on staff and yet a relational investment there will be very important. So the way that we do this - we have an annual pastors and wives retreat. I mean even here at this conference, the value of wives being present here and how we think about that locally, it is immensely important for the relationships, and what takes place as a leading reason there. So we do a pastors and wives retreat as well. We have small groups that pastors and wives are in, where we're enjoying fellowship together. The ladies have fellowship group and they'll also do other outings that my wife Meghan organizes throughout the year.

Mickey Connolly: Great. You've done a good job here. Any other thoughts?

CJ Mahaney: I think it begins with a both private and public affirmation of the influence and effect of the wife's example on the church, as wife and mother, and making sure that each pastor's wife knows that they're being studied and their influence exceeds their awareness rooted in their example. So I would want that affirmed privately and celebrated publicly. I'd want to make sure... We all want to make sure, that each pastor is prizing his wife. This is your fellow heir of the grace of life. This is the only individual you are in covenant with. So we want to do all of the pastoral team, to make sure that the marriages are growing and rich with romance. So that would be certainly another aspect of what takes place.

And also I want to address the expectations of a pastor's wife. I don't think the relationships among pastors wives is going to be as close as they are among the pastors. That can be simply because we are normally spending much more time together. You can't duplicate that with the wives. We were well-meaning in our early years, but I think made some mistakes in either creating, or leaving the impression that there would be similar close relationships among all the pastor's wives and you can't legislate that. You can't impose that, and you certainly can't restrict that. So I don't want pastor's wives vulnerable in that regard. And yes, we have small groups and those serve us immensely as well.

All the pastors aren't best of friends either, so I don't want that expectation imposed on them either. There should be an element, as Jeff said, of friendship, genuine affection. But that doesn't mean we're imposing the closest possible friendship on the pastors, on the pastoral team. And that needs to apply to the ladies as well.

Mickey Connolly: Good. Thank you. You've made a special point in Pastor's College and Gary and Betsy have served so many people so well. Why have you made that a focus in Pastors College to invest in young pastors' marriages in the way you have?

Jeff Purswell: As we know, our qualification as pastors depends on that marriage. The most important influence in our lives is that marriage. The most important means of sanctification is that marriage. To neglect that marriage is to neglect the chief means of grace in each man's life. It's common in theological education. And this isn't a criticism of seminaries and such things. It's an educational model which we're pursuing. We benefit from that. But the Pastors College is a different kind of model. It's a pastoral model. And so we never want to neglect in our training of pastors, those areas which are the very things that qualify them in the first place. Your knowledge of scripture. You have to know scripture. Your life has to be built on it. But there's not like if you drop below, you're disqualified. No, but failure in your marriage can disqualify you. It's not just like, "Oh, it's a good thing we feel good about." We would be remiss if we're not giving attention to the very things that qualify men for ministry and Gary and Betsy just do great.

Mickey Connolly: They do a great job.

Jeff Purswell: Fantastic.

Mickey Connolly: I just want to spend a little bit of time on this, but speaking to some guys who were solo pastors, church planters, they're the only elder in their church, but they need guys around them as well. Any current thoughts on solo guys, or church planters and until they build a plurality of elders, how they can build a team around them to serve them in all the joys and helps that a pastoral team is?

Jon Payne: I think one really important fundamental answer is that's a major reason we have partnership. So for the solo pastor, there is a partnership that happens in his region, in this room, that is distinct from the kind of mutual partnership that he's going to experience in his body. That is essential as well, but it's not the same thing as the partnership he needs from fellow pastors. So my appeal to the solo pastors, don't prematurely elevate people into the role of pastor just because you feel the need for that pastoral camaraderie. Look for that in the partnership. And the partnership is eager to provide that, thankfully in our family of churches. So look for that in the partnership. And then that frees you to enjoy the membership camaraderie that you have with fellow servants and fellow leaders in the church without putting on them the burden of an office that they're not called to.

So I would urge the solo the pastor, because you're solo press into your regional leader and the regional pastors. Let them speak into the direction of your soul, and your church, and your marriage, and care in those ways. Talk it out with them the concerns you have about your church, let them weigh in. And then that allows you to benefit from lay leaders in the church that are not pastors and benefit from that camaraderie in that distinctive way where you are still governmentally responsible, but you are able to benefit from their input and perspective and love and care without that distinction being blurred.

Mickey Connolly: That's wise.

Jeff Purswell: I'm going to piggyback on something that you said that I think is really important, and it played a role in our recent history. It's been an influence in our recent history. And that is when we sort of codified the book of church order and there was teaching in there about plurality, but that actually preceded the book of church order when we were sort of laying the groundwork for a development of polity back in 2009, 2010. But the idea of plurality was stressed, emphasized - it's a biblical priority, very important. But I think at times it can get elevated to this absolute value and an imperative at all times. And the new Testament speaks against that. You see Paul on the first missionary journey, for instance, he goes, he plants churches. He and Barnabas plant these churches. Then he goes back around later, and appoints... At chapter 14 appoints elders in all the churches. So it's possible for a church to exist without a plurality. Well, many churches are going to start off that way, as Jon was saying.

And the other thing I just want to mention is one of the things that has become common for us and embraced by us more freely, is the reality of bi-vocational elders. Wonderful. Needful. And if you're in this room and you're a bi-vocational elder, thank you. You're sacrificially serving the church without the luxury of pay, with sometimes a different perception of the importance of your role. It's sacrificial. It's Christ like. It's glorious. My caution there was, I think when that became a more widespread thing, my fear was - and I'm not sure if this is happening - but my fear was that we were swinging the pendulum, especially when we were forming the ordination standards. And all of a sudden, well I need a plurality. Let's get some bi-vocational elders. I remember the rush before the ordination standards. Get guys in it.

Mickey Connolly:  No offense to any of you guys. I've been in that position.

Jeff Purswell: But it did concern me, because I thought, I hope we're not violating the corresponding principle in 1 Timothy about laying hands too quickly. And my fear was that we were going to have churches where, because once you lay hands on a guy, it's hard to unlay hands on, or take hands off. We just want to make sure that elders really are elders, right? And so I think Jon's caution is an excellent one. That value of plurality that we want to pursue is not an absolute imperative that we have to have instantaneously. And in pursuing it instantaneously, you can actually do great damage.

Mickey Connolly: Yep. Excellent. Alright. You brought up senior pastors and CJ you brought up senior lead pastors as well and Jeff just some of the things you said about investing different roles with different value and God sees them all. Theyj ust so served us so well. And I think it's, it's been my observation, the role, or even our thinking about lead pastor, senior pastors has somewhat evolved in good ways over the years. So how would you guys think of, or see that role now in this point in time in Sovereign Grace's history?

Jon Payne: It's your turn Jared. Senior guys should speak.

Jared Mellinger: Well on the history piece, I don't know that I'm in the best position to speak to that or how the role has evolved. The way that I think of the role of a senior pastor is that the senior pastor is leading the pastoral team in ministering the word of God to the people of God. So there is an accent that I would place on the ministry of the word in all of its breadth as a concept but leading these brothers in the ministry of the word, that means equipping them and training them in that. That means utilizing them in their gifts, working to make them a success and all of those kinds of things.

Jon Payne: I think what Jeff said earlier is, in my view, the crucial difference where it's a distinction of gifting, not a distinction of hierarchy. So the lead pastor is not a different kind of office. It's an office with a particular gifting set. So we're all shepherds, and there is one shepherd that maybe has a greater gifting in guiding than all the other shepherds who are also supposed to be guiding the church. Often has maybe a slightly greater gifting in public teaching among shepherds who are all supposed to be teaching. So thinking of it as more of a 1 Corinthians 12, the body... If the body is of many parts all from one source, surely the pastoral team should be a body of many parts. And in this case, all the same role, but with different accents. That limited experience I would have seems to be a crucial way teams divide and split, is when say the senior pastor is viewed to be the best at everything, and then he's not, and some cases he's the worst at something.

But when the team is thinking of him in that role, then they are understandably disappointed when they bump into areas of weakness, where we're the worst on the team at something and they're disillusioned and then that leads to conflict, rather than thinking, "He's really good at a few things. That's why he's leading. He's maybe the worst at some things, and he's benefitting from the rest of the team." I think that's a different way of thinking about it. Then he's the best at everything. That's why he's the head man.

Mickey Connolly: Yup. I have used the term over the years, the myth of the omnicompetent senior pastor...

Jon Payne: Right.

Mickey Connolly: Very few guys like that out there.

CJ Mahaney: I think senior pastors. Lead pastors have to be aware that there can be a tendency to assign... A tendency by well-meaning church members to assign exaggerated significance to the senior pastor.

Jon Payne: That's right.

CJ Mahaney: We must be aware of that. We must dissuade people from that and we have the privilege. Every senior pastor should have a conviction about a functioning plurality. I have more of a conviction about that from scripture than I do about the role of a senior pastor, or a lead pastor. I can argue from scripture for that role. I've seen the benefits of it. I've seen the drawbacks where it's not present, but my conviction is related to a functioning plurality.

Therefore, if I have that conviction, then my role as a lead pastor, the privilege I have and the responsibility I have is to build a team privately where each guy can bring their specialized contribution to serving the church and the ministry of the word, and have steered it so well and that becomes obvious to the church. So whether it's in private conversation or publicly, I want to convey reality to either an individual in private conversation, or the church publicly that this is a team thing and there is nothing humble about that. That's just called pure basic introductory honesty.

So whether it's in your order of service. Speaking from our experience. I'm sure it's the same in your experience as well. I want to delegate as much as possible who is serving the church, particularly as we gather on Sunday, so that it's obvious to even a guest for the first time. This is a team thing here. I want to make sure in announcements I'm giving that I'm drawing attention to the influence of a particular pastor, so that no one mistakes that for somehow my broader influence. In a sermon where appropriate I want to use the pastor who has been the primary means of grace as the illustration.

All of those things I think convey to people what should be happening and is happening and that state of functioning plurality is taking place. So that I think is the privilege and responsibility of a lead pastor, and a senior pastor, and all the other pastors should clearly be aware of that, and find it a joy to work with that individual knowing that that individual exists to serve them. They're not there simply to serve him.

Jared Mellinger: Right. And if you're not in a senior pastoral role, that is no limit on the ability of influence, the profound influence you can have in the church and beyond the church. I could take you through our whole pastoral team. Mark Prater is on our team. When I travel, I tell people I go to Marty Machowski's church if I'm introducing myself, because of the influence that his writing and children's books have had. Some of the people who are currently having the most profound influence on my life. Guys like Mark, guys like my dad, guys like Jeff are not senior pastors. And so those who are not in senior pastor roles can have a profound, often more profound, influence in terms of their life and ministry than those who serve in senior pastoral roles. So that's an area where we don't want to make that distinction in terms of influence and impact.

At Covenant Fellowship, we have a good number of brothers who could be senior pastors, or they have the gifting for it. They could be leading churches on their own. They've decided to stay, so that we have a stronger team and they're utilizing their influence there. It's a glorious thing. We wouldn't be as strong as we are as a church without it.

CJ Mahaney: And I would argue, and I think you would agree, if you study any large church, normally that pastoral team is populated by a number of guys who have humbly stayed, determined they could serve best by specializing in a support role. They are flourishing. And so it's just unthinkable for the senior pastor not to be amazed by that humility and servanthood, and draw attention to it. So again, this is just pointing out the obvious is it not? I mean, I make clear at our church, Brian Chesemore carries the pastoral responsibility for this church. That's no exaggeration. I'm not being humble. It's just true. And I want to convey that to the people. Walking into a baptism recently I was walking next to Tyson Zeigler, one of our bi-vocational pastors with a church member. And the church member just said something about Tyson. And then I drew attention. I say, "Oh, my. He's just one of the finest pastoral counselors I know." The guy just looked at me, he said, "I'm in this church because of Tyson."

Jon Payne: That's great.

Mark Prater: And I just said, "That's fabulous."

Jon Payne: That's great.

CJ Mahaney: "That's fabulous." And I think that is true. So no senior pastors should think, "You know what, they're all pretty much here because of me." No, no, no. They might be overlooking you. You're an idiot if you assume that.

Mickey Connolly: Oh my.

Jon Payne: Oh my goodness.

Jeff Purswell: I think there's an implication of that, especially for young guys. And I've had this conversation with many young guys who want to talk to me about their future, "I think I'm maybe called to church plant." Maybe you are. Something to explore, something to pray about. But I will sometimes say, I'm sure you guys have had this experience, "That's possible. But consider this, especially if you're on a team in a church that's larger, it's possible that your impact, your influence, the fruit that you bear serving on this team could far exceed what you would bear... Let's say you planted a church. Not to underestimate what God might do, but let's say that church grows to 100, 150. That's wonderful. But if you're in  a church like this, that’s influence is so broad, you might be giving short shrift to the fruit that your life could actually bear. I used this analogy the other night in the member's meeting. Churches are different. Some churches are like cigar boats. They're fast, they're nimble. They can go places that big ships can't go. Other churches are big ships, they're deep water vessels. They can carry a lot of supplies, they can bring aid to distant lands. It takes a lot of people. It takes a big crew on that ship. And so you could be driving a cigar boat and do some really wonderful things, but if you could be the first mate on a deep water vessel and my goodness, the fruit that you could bear. So I just wouldn't assume - I think you would know this. We talked about this in the message, but pastoral roles aren't stepping stones until I finally make it to get me a pulpit. Which is really part of certain church traditions. You're really not a pastor until you get a pulpit. And that's the language that you use. So I am grateful we don't build that way and we don't view ourselves that way.

Mickey Connolly: Amen.

Jon Payne: I think growing up in Sovereign Grace, so many heroes are not lead pastors. If you just go down the list of men. I mean my dad has never been a lead pastor, my father-in-law was never a lead pastor. I can go down the list - Gary and Jeff... Men who profoundly influenced...I mean lead pastors influence too. So there needs to be this sense of, if I'm not built to be the lead guy, I am built to be something that God can use in a mighty way to affect the next generation. I'm sure you would say the same thing.

Jared Mellinger: Yes. Amen.

CJ Mahaney: Yeah. And if anybody present is romanticizing the role of lead pastor, senior pastor, it might be wise to have a candid conversation with a senior pastor, and ask what it's like to feel that weight and bear that weight of responsibility. It might dissuade them from wrongly romanticizing that. And I would just want to argue too that where a guy... We've had a number of guys in our history, I mean this has been my history working with a number of guys. Yes, many of them could have all pastored churches, but I would argue that they're humbling themselves in serving in a specific and specialized way on a pastoral team has had far more influence and effect and allowed them to cultivate certain giftings that they have in a specialized way that have had a far, far reaching effect. So we want to be doing all we can to argue for the benefit of team ministry, because it's our history and we're reaping the fruit of that. Every moment of every day.

Mickey Connolly: Because we're sinners, because we're human and we're working together as a team. We're having to make a lot of decisions. There can be disagreements, which can often be the thing that kind of blows things up. What advice, what wisdom, biblical wisdom for teams when they find themselves in places of disagreement when decisions are being made. How do you work through that to keep the unity of the team? What are some of the critical factors?

CJ Mahaney: Yeah, excellent question. Yeah. Well every pastor should memorize. 1st Peter 4:8 - "Love covers a multitude of sin", because you're going to have the opportunity to do so. This might strike you oddly. I think a friend of Jeff's named Andy Naselli and there's a coauthor, I think his last name is Crowley, they wrote a book on conscience, the subtitle's rather lengthy, so I don't have that memorized. And in recent years having read that book, it's become mandatory required reading for anyone who we're considering for eldership in the church, because exploring conscience in scripture. So my point would be simply this. So often conflict comes from the obvious sin, but it can also come from a misinformed conscience, and I don't think we've given enough attention to conscience. What's the difference between strong conscience and a weak conscience? And so in this book they talk about if memory serves level one issues theologically, level two, level three, understanding what disputable matters are. Those would be level three, exploring all those areas together ideally before someone is a part of the pastoral team, but get started when you return home. Because often those become areas of conflict where a disproportionate weight is given to something. I was talking to somebody recently, and don't want to divulge too many of the details. They were talking to me about an issue that I would say would be level three. And so in trying to provide my perspective, they were humbly asking, I was also trying to caution them that the force, the feeling with which they were carrying this that they might want to give some attention to, because it would be disproportionate for this issue and this is the kind of force and feeling you want to have for the gospel. You want to have this for Christ and him crucified, not for this issue, but I find these kinds of issues related to the conscience often unexplored and so they can be unexpected means of conflict that I think we can avoid if we give more attention to these and talk about them in the context of the church. Jeff is shaking his head, assuming that's approval to Jeff. Yeah, hope so.

Jeff Purswell: No, it's huge. Yeah, absolutely.

CJ Mahaney: Why? Why do you feel that?

Jeff Purswell: When someone says "Man, this is against my conscience." It's like, you can't argue with that.

CJ Mahaney:  Right.

Jeff Purswell: Okay. What's our authority? Not your conscience, but God's Word. And how are you holding that thing that's against your conscience, and are you putting it in proportion to other issues and to other people's conscience, because maybe other people's conscience, something's got to give here, because not everyone's conscience is feeling the same thing. And so this is probably not a matter of absolute truth. So I just think that is so important, because oftentimes a proud heart can... And it can happen in all of us, but when we're elevating things to conscience and we invest our identity with that, I think there's often... I think a proud heart can go there quickly and it can hold a team hostage to one's own preferences that aren't necessarily biblical. That's not humbly submitting, or deferring to the rest of the team. And there's issues. I mean, I think the way CJ has led and I've watched him lead. If there's a decision that's going to affect the whole church, then we want to be on board with that. We just started a capital campaign. We're not, "Oh three to two, raise $800,000. Okay, let's go for it." No, we're not going to take a step until we're just all in faith, all convinced, all able to represent that to the church, to lead the church in faith and so forth. But when it's not that, I just think we all have to guard our hearts from elevating preference to what we call conscience. It may be conscience, but it may be a misinformed conscience. Like CJ said.

CJ Mahaney: Yeah. We just have to distinguish between ethics and wisdom. And so often we're not talking about an ethical issue that is clear in God's word. So often, normally pastors meetings, agendas are populated by wisdom issues, which means there are anywhere from 5 to 10 different ways we could do this. If you're approaching that as if there's just a right and wrong here. There's just a right and wrong, well then you have a misinformed conscience. That would be wrong. No, there are 8 ways we could do this and now we have to seek God and collectively work together. And yeah, what Jeff said is so important. If there are decisions that are going to affect the church, theological... The entirety of the church theologically, or practically, no differing aloud. And no matter how long it takes for us to discuss this and decide, we have to be united on this, but there has to be an attitude of deference, or else no eldership will be effective for even a single elders meeting.

And if you just understand that so many of these issues, they really are wisdom issues. We could do this, or we could do this and let's talk about what would be the wisest way and then let's entrust it to God and try it. And we might return here to say that wasn't the wisest way. This is a wiser way, but nobody's sinned. Nobody's doing anything unethical. We're just idiots trying to find our way, in dependence upon God as to how to best lead the people of God. So I find the ethics wisdom thing helpful for my soul. So this doesn't take on undue weight.

Jared Mellinger: I was going to say disagreement should be expected. We have ten elders soon to be two more. We never make it through an elders meeting without there being a disagreement. And I think that there's a need to be able to express our opinions, disagree, and then do some version of what a vote is, or see where the consensus is. We tend to not do formal votes. We realize, okay, this is the majority, and then we make a decision. Most of the decisions we make are not at the level of the importance that we need to have everyone come to the point where they agree with that.

The issue is, can I move forward with the team in that? So I share my thoughts, majority think this. Okay, that's what we're going to do. I think sometimes we can say that we raised the content. That just means that I disagree with it, but I don't think it's the best way forward that I might feel uncomfortable with it. So I think that there's a need otherwise as an eldership, especially if you have any number of elders, you won't be able to get anything done. We need to be able to move forward with a majority without minority opinions holding them up, or without that translating into an ongoing posture of dissent. We express our disagreement and then we move forward as one in what the eldership has decided.

Jeff Purswell: And if your disagreement is in someone else's sphere. Yeah. Nothing to do with that ministry. You know what, I feel strongly about it. Just back off.

Jon Payne: Wouldn't you say Mickey, and you should speak to this, because you've dealt with these difficult situations, but where there is conflict that comes out of maybe misapplication of these principles or other more serious issues that churches often wait too long to ask for outside perspective, encouragement, help, advice. I mean, I feel like churches tend to wait until everybody's so mad that whoever's coming in is just trying to keep people saved, let alone... So it seems like it would be better if at an early stage where we're not able to move forward here, inviting someone in to provide help would be a wise practice.

Mickey Connolly: Yeah. I couldn't agree more. I think to wait too long until a situation has become toxic, and we've seen it happen in a few situations. It's just so unwise. So just to be able to get the help when it becomes obvious we can't move ahead together. I think it's very wise.

CJ Mahaney: From something Jared said. I think it's the responsibility of the lead pastor to make sure the team understands that after he shares his perspective, he invites, welcomes and creates a context and a climate where anyone can voice their disagreements. So that would be the responsibility of the lead pastor, but then it's the responsibility of every pastor to have their big boy pants on, and to participate in that discussion and to not excuse themselves because of fear of man. That's not an excuse in that context from participating and being prepared that they might be disagreed with and lose the vote. And that's a risk they run. But this is part of their role and responsibility and what we must avoid is what one CEO calls the "meeting after the meeting." If we're having a meeting and we're discussing this agenda item, this is the meeting where this is being discussed and this isn't preliminary to then breaking down after this, throughout the next month for everybody to have separate little meetings to convey. Now there are times, certainly when conversations take place outside the regular schedule ... It's not what I'm talking about. But I'm saying if that's the kind of pattern in practice. No, this is the meeting. This is why we're here. And so everybody, put your big boy pants on. Everybody participate. And lead pastor create an environment where there's no reluctance to participate. But every elder has a responsibility to participate.

Jeff Purswell: I would also say with our value of plurality and all workers are one, I do think it's wise and appropriate. If you are brand new to a team and there's 75 years of pastoral experience on that team, and you've been a pastor for three months, you should participate, but you shouldn't think, "I'm equal. And my voice should be as loud as these guys who've built this church over 20 years. I'm at the table, here I come." Maybe that's just an obvious thing to say, but I do think we can have an artificial ham-fisted kind of plurality that, "Well, yeah. I'm just as important as anyone."

Mickey Connolly: All right. Thank you gentlemen. You did an outstanding job, served all of us so well. I would just encourage, as we often do, but I think it's really important. Jeff's message this morning and this panel, take these back, talk to your team. If there's things that you found in your own heart, or in the dynamics of your team, please don't hesitate to talk about these things. This was intended to serve you.